What a week

“This post has been edited (7-04-06) to come into compliance with the Rules of Conduct for the staff of Beliefnet and Blogger. It is claimed that I have taken privileges that was or is against the permitted use of the posting sites. Beliefnet has asked me to remove or censor the story about how I was banned from a Dialogue group called Breaking Ground and Building Wisdom #6 and that I am making myself subject to having my membership with them removed and also having my membership with Blogger removed.

If I am removed, my life will be in jeopardy, I will become the next target of an attack, and this time I very well could end up dead.

While I certainly feel it would be beneficial to my security to remain a member in good standing and to continue posting avoiding conflicts and confrontations, I feel convicted that there is so much to learn about how we interact in society and as a community that I must alter the text as much as I can but I must share the experience to expose the problem to the light of public scrutiny.” - Gary

What a week,

I got banned from a Dialogue Group on Beliefnet by a cute little set up…

We started out on one Board and this Catholic Priest wanna be found the perfect way of getting me out of the group.

The idea is to include and not exclude! Unfortunately it was seen that I had a differing opinion of where and how to make love.

The issue was about a recent vote. We are banning same sex unions in my state at the same time the issue came up as a national issue.

This is what happened…


Scott aka (CatholicGuy777)

He wanted to seriously know how my generation could help his, and felt profane words really didn’t matter.

He requested that my generation would treat the concepts of Love, Sex and Marriage with more respect.


I replied as TheGreatWhiteBuffalo

Laughing at Scott And round and round we go...Let's not talk down, and put our best foot forward, on top of that NPR will promote what ever you wish to be promoted...The question is do they use biased reporting?Scott, I've written a lot about Love and Marriage, would you like me to start a thread on that so we can fix your mind straight?I'd be willing to dance a round with you on those issues if you care...Do you want to start the thread or shall I?


CatholicGuy777

While respecting Love and Marriage he claims no contempt to honor both. He claims that he doesn’t need to be “straightened out” while above he was asking me for direction and continued with the problems of others in his generation who are used to the idea or concept of “free Sex” requesting that the older community would emphasize a more traditional and respectful view through our actions. He goes on to blame the Hippies for the high divorce rate currently affecting America with cheapened concepts of Love and Marriage presented to the youth today.

Scott recognizes that the youth of today are scared by the widespread hurt and how our families are fractured. He talks about his luck that his parents have stuck together while going to school to watch children arguing over the definitions of step/half siblings, and he remarks that we do not know how horrible this problem is.

Scott then left a final note about the music of the Hippies and how even that cheapened his society.


I replied as TheGreatWhiteBuffalo

Hi Scott,Glad to see your position on this issue, I kind of thought from our other encounters that you would feel that way but the wording of you post had me a little confused.I'm going to ask again to start another thread...I'm tired and I won't be on much longer tonight, I have to get up early tomorrow and tomorrow night we have a concert to attend my daughter is singing in the chorus at school.But I would like to talk more about the values placed on and around marriage and how divorce has compromised all of that and a few other ideas that I would like to pass along regarding abuse in relationships and that stuff...You read my report on the Evolution of Religion did you not? I cover a lot of this in that writing, which is the theme, abuse underscores the majority of the paper and identifies the source, and from there we can move forward.So yes, I would like to talk more with you or who ever, and on more than one board, I'm sure it would be a great topic in BGBW6...I'm in are you? All others welcome... Let’s talk about the real issue... Love


CatholicGuy777

Scott agrees that our other dialogue group (Breaking Ground and Building Wisdom #6 aka BGBW6) would be a better place for this discussion. He informs me that he missed or didn’t get to read, my writings about the “Evolution of Religion.” He informs me that I have his consent, if I wanted to start a thread on the values of Marriage. He acknowledges respect for the members of the group that are participating in this discussion, because this is a writing improvement group, and not set up as BGBW6, a group set up to discussing things such as Love and Marriage.

Scott then promotes the other dialogue group ending in two weeks and giving directions how to find the next group beginning in two weeks at that time, under the category of “other”.


My reply TheGreatWhiteBuffalo

Certainly that was my concern.Look for the thread in BGBW6..


In the BGBW#6 group I started the dialogue creating and posting this thread, “About the Vote today.” Here is a recount of the replies…


TheGreatWhiteBuffalo
I have one question...What is the vision that you have of your children concerning matters of sexual conduct?Taking your mind off of your personal desires and giving focus to your children or grand children, what would you teach them about sex if you could?


Sean aka Tulachard wrote,

“… I would outline the differences with respect to the sexes, and I would tell them that the best sex is between people that love each other.”


Joseph aka (Darkmoonman): the moderator of the group.

Joseph added to what Sean wrote that he would not want children to feel guilty about having sexual feelings and he wanted enough information provided so that when engaging in sex there would be no further spread of diseases. He was concerned about safety prevention and unwanted pregnancies for the heterosexual and the Bisexual.


Editors comment:
I would like to note in this re-edit, the points that Darkmoonman doesn’t address is monogamy. I suggest later that people should teach abstinence as I do and I know that teaching abstinence can work.
Joseph Darkmoonman also uses the term Bisexual which if you think about it does not lend itself to a monogamous relationship or the advocation there of.
I also note that Joseph doesn’t mind if I’m made to feel guilty about the words I use and post with.


Charlene aka ClovesG the originator of this dialogue group.

Charlene gives a nice greeting to me.She says that she would do both of what Sean and Joseph said. She tells how both of her children were sexually active before she would have wanted them to experience and participate in these adult behaviors. She tells how she was told a day or two after the children had these experiences.

Several examples were given confusing lust for love and participations and protections along with humiliations.

Charlene then recognizes the importance of keeping the lines of communications open so that anything can be talked about and not keeping secrets from the authority of a parent. She took the initiative to confront the abuser and the abuser apologized and a friendship was created.She then gives me this specific advice:
So Gary.....if you are about to tell your kids about sex......which I hope you choose to do before they hear it from a source that isn't as forthcoming with ALL the facts......try to show them the love you have for them no matter what they choose to do with the information because even the very best kid and smart kid has done some dumb things when it has come to sex.Love, Char :)


Just another editor’s note:
This is not a discussion about what I am going to say to my children, but to answer the questions that Scott brought up as to what our generation should be teaching his generation.


Darkmoonman then quotes from Charlene:

"They mistake lust for love."
He says that while this happens a lot, he doesn’t know how to teach the difference to children with limited knowledge. He claims that he never confused lust for love and has no idea why.

He tells what his mother told him about sex that sex is nasty and Jesus would hate you, he tells how this was told to him when his hamster gave birth.

He tells what he learned about sex from school that sex will give you syphilis and you will die insane.  (General impression from his one & only sex ed lesson in a biology class).What he learned from his father was that there are good girls and bad girls, and his father hoped he would know the difference. (Told to him at 18 the day he began college).
Joseph then quotes again:"But, the fact that the lines of communications were open and I had encouraged both my kids to be ok with talking to me about their problems and their life.......I knew what happened to both of them."Joseph states, “Admittedly, I don't go about asking women whether they talk with their kids about sex, but you are one of only two women I've known who had such a good relationship with their kids.”

More Editors’ notes:
I note that Joseph admires having the lines of communication open for women and their children I hope we all understand to include both parents in this discussion because when a lesson is reinforced from all authority positions that the lines of communication are the way to improve our society.


Joseph also quotes and replies:
""try to show them the love you have for them no matter what they choose to do with the information because even the very best kid and smart kid has done some dumb things when it has come to sex."Yeah, what she said.


ClovesG responds:
"Admittedly, I don't go about asking women whether they talk with their kids about sex, but you are one of only two women I've known who had such a good relationship with their kids."I sure hope that number keeps growing......I really think kids are worth listening to as opposed to talk at. I do remember the difference when I was a kid and I was positive I wanted different for my kids. Love , Char :)


Editors note:
I am so taken by the wording of the freedom to communicate with your children and others that I don’t want to change the way this is worded, Charlene has stated and expressed my real concern in our society that we are not open to communication, good bad or indifferent. We need to be able to listen and have a voice, with something to offer. I wrote that I want my children back, and that is the theme to be able to speak and converse and not be taken to task because I care for their health and safety.


CatholicGuy777 joins in:

Speaking as a traditionalist and a youth he desires that us adults would put a stronger message and emphasis on the sanctity of marriage and the importance of abstinence and the eternal relationship that is married to people involved in marriage and sex.

Scott defines the three as the following: 1.) Sanctity of Marriage

I wish the stress here would be that cheating is wrong and immoral, that it destroys trust, and in destroying that trust the marriage. Marriage should be seen as a lifetime commitment which should only be entered into because both parties Love each other-not lust. Marriages should not be entered into if there is no Love, if it is for economic reasons, if it is being forced upon either the man or woman by their families, friends, or society in general. Marriage should be seen as the highest level of commitment and Love.


Editor’s note:
I would like to add that cheating involves being faithful to your partner in marriage. Faithfulness includes not lying about things that your partner has done or representing your partner in a way that is not honest by excluding important current events. Honesty would not present things of history in the present tense continuing to present problems after forgiveness was requested and reparations were made. It is false forgiveness that the offender keeps putting pressure upon people creating a hostile environment where the offender who is the liar and keeps attacking the victim and those attacks by the elitists that have authority to change and help the victims out of the problem by exposing the lies have created a way to make all victims appear to be unforgivable, the twist of spinning the victim into the offender. (I will offer more about the subject of forgiveness later the importance of this subject involves the threat that my life could have made upon it and the blood that will be on the hands of those that could make changes and prevent the harm from happening to me or others.)


The United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights shall supersede all other laws and contracts.


2.)The Importance of WaitingWhen both parties wait until marriage to engage in sexual activity, it makes the activity even more special than it is by nature, simply because it has reserved. Not to mention added benefits of knowing that you can not become pregnant without your consent, STDs can't be transferred and the emotional stress of sexual activity at a young age is mostly avoided.

Now, do I believe that sexual education classes are necessary? Absolutely, but I don't think they should stress using condoms, birth control, etc. before abstinence. "Protection" doesn't always carry out its desired function (and from a traditional RC (Roman Catholic) perspective, is immoral because it prevents the possibility of Life).

3.)The Inviolability of Marriage

Again most of this coming from the RC perspective, I know that not all of us believe in this religion, in fact most here do not, but just know that is where I am coming from.

Scripture tells us that Marriage is designed to be eternal, ever-lasting. We are told that what God has joined, no man should separate. Marriage is one of the highest, if not the highest, level of Love-not to be mistaken for Eros/physical attraction. Because true Love is eternal and ever-lasting (Love is patient, Love is kind. It is not jealous, is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoings but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. 1 Corinthians 13 4-8)

Divorce should NOT be an option. Divorce splits families, divides children (who are the product of sex, the great Love affirming, Life creating act) against their parents, and harms all involved.

Char, I believe you know this well.

“I know this has sounded to be an extremely fundamentalist post, especially coming from some one such as me. And if I have hurt any of you, please accept my humble apologies for that hurt. But like it or not, these are my views, and I feel very strongly about it. I feel that groups such as the Hippies have done much to harm, corrupt, and destroy the sanctity of Marriage and the Beauty of Sex. Their concept of "free" sex has only worsened in our culture today as it is now combined with things one didn't see many years ago. Things like condoms, porn, birth control, abortions of different kinds, and to a degree the marketing axiom "Sex sells." Sex has also been cheapened and vilified by people such as those who say that it is dirty, and those who engage in Sex are hell-bound. Another subject which I am forced to remember is the sexual abuse scandal within my own Church, which has universally caused pain and suffering among not only Catholics, but all humanity. This too has cheapened and scarred, many people for life; which doesn't help the current situation, any. If I could change anything, it would be this scandal. I wish that it had never ever, ever, happened. :(“ – Scott aka Catholic Guy

Editor’s note:
Once again I would like everyone to remember this quote and question the vehemence that Scott a youth is so flabbergasted with the Hippies and the Hippie movement, not a typical response for one from his supposed generation. I once read a post of his about the Mafia, he knows or appears to be a very good study of human conditions, and social behaviors, but as you will soon find out has much to learn about his own responses, and reactions.


My reply as TheGreatWhiteBuffalo:

Scott,I skimmed your writings and I want to go over it again when I am awake.I'm glad that you posted, I know this topic weighs heavy on your heart from the other board that we posted on...I think I agree with all most all of what you write...If only you would know the hero in me... (Yes, there is one in this heart of mine...) The problem is you really have to know my mind... Even when you are closest to the source, you still might find you really don't know me at all...I'm really tired and I have to get up early for work again tomorrow... It's turned out to be a busy week for me...Abstinence and Serial Monogamy... No Church, Marriage is between a man and a woman,No Divorce if at all possible to work things out... Faithfulness is the issue here... Also Abuse is a good or important factor...I love, Love


CatholicGuy777 responds:

“No Church?As I believe, the Church is essential to keeping a Marriage healthy. There it was contracted; there it will receive nourishment, as we all should.”


Editor’s note:
Without reading the Evolution of Religion, Scott would never know how the Church was involved in an assault upon my life, coming between me and my wife, how the leaders convinced and deceived and followed lies, instead of really trying to understand me. They showed that they lacked care and concern for the Truth, one of the Names of Jesus the Christ is the Truth, and it is so important to know the Truth.


I reply as TheGreatWhiteBuffalo
Let us talk and I'll explain...Marriage between a man and a woman before the eyes of GOD no one else is important to what the two do in Love, but that they decide this; they do it together. United...The church has many flaws, we need to recognize the error of such an institution that has run amuck and caused such great harm to society...If no church existed would the world be a safer place?There is another aspect of this process that you have to consider, we now have the internet and we need to follow one global teaching... We need to shrink the structure of the text to have more meaning, more support and less control presenting the false belief in hell...From there we can grow...Dear Scott, I know that must be hard for you to read, because of what you wrote about the Da Vinci Code, you walked out disgusted... I too am sorry that I might be upsetting you...See how this vote hurts?This issue cuts to the core...The only question left to ask is; what would you give for world peace?A building?A word?A lie?A book?A fortune?


CatholicGuy777 again replies:
“Gary,A wise man once said, "If you want peace, work for justice." Makes sense doesn't it?For all the harm that has come about because of power-hungry people in the Church, you MUST consider people like Francis of Assisi, Bishop Gregory, Our Lady, Gandhi, Mother Teresa, and numerous others have done throughout the ages. Yes I know that Gandhi wasn't Catholic, but he did A LOT of good for the Indian people.So in answer to your question, I think this world would be worse off if Catholicism-all Seven Rites-did not exist. After all, she has consistently stood for the poor and downtrodden, her very roots in the Early Church confirm this.You are correct; your post was difficult for me to read. But I am glad that I read it. I do not believe that with the arrival of the Internet we need one global teaching: rather we've ALWAYS needed that. Nor do I think that the Internet should rule who we are. It is simply a tool. Who would let a tool rule their lives?More later, I am sure, but for now, I say farewell.Humbly yours”Scott


Joseph aka Darkmoonman responds:

He quotes;
"When both parties wait until marriage to engage in sexual activity"“Under this, I (like anyone else gay) would have spent my life being celibate, and would never have met & enjoyed the precious years with my soul-mate Clemeth.” - Joseph “IMO, what we need is to stop mystifying sex and confusing it with love.” - Joseph


CatholicGuy777 responds to Joseph:

Scott quotes Joseph, “Under this, I (like anyone else gay) would have spent my life being celibate, and would never have met & enjoyed the precious years with my soul-mate Clemeth.”
Scott acknowledges the hurt that Joseph might feel and I quote, “I know that it sounds harsh. And were you Catholic I would talk about how being celibate would be your great Sacrifice, your great Cross to bear. I will spend my life celibate. To me this is a fact of life, and it does not bother me.” -Scott
Then Scott asks, “I wonder though, could you and Clemeth, whom you obviously Love, have expressed your Love for one another in a way other than Sex? Again, I know this sounds harsh, and for that harshness, I apologize.” - Scott

Scott then quotes Joseph again, “IMO, what we need is to stop mystifying sex and confusing it with love.” - Joseph
Scott then asks, “How do you mean mystifying?” and apologizes to Joseph, “My deepest apologies for any pain I have inflicted upon you Joseph”


ClovesG responds:

She quotes Joseph, "IMO, what we need is to stop mystifying sex and confusing it with love."
I’m quoting her response to Darkmoonman, “DMM....I so agree!!! As for making love without marriage, I am so happy you chose to love Clemeth with all your heart and whatever way you chose to express this love was your gift to the relationship. I have had sex both in and out of marriage. I have had sex with and without love. I can say that what really meant the most to me was having the love. Being married was just another way for me to express my commitment to the union, but there would not have been such a union without the love first. I know the church and many who follow the church teachings will say that I have sinned. Cool. I love them for caring and I know their hearts want the best for me. What is best for me is to grow in the direction I feel will help me to be a more loving and caring person. Making love to the man I adore is the best way for me to experience my capacity to love. This is just me, but I respect others for however they choose to learn about love.” - CharleneLove, Char :)


Sean aka Tulachard

Sean quotes Scott talking to Joseph, “I know that it sounds harsh. And were you Catholic I would talk about how being celibate would be your great Sacrifice, your great Cross to bear. I will spend my life celibate. To me this is a fact of life, and it does not bother me.I wonder though, could you and Clemeth, whom you obviously Love, have expressed your Love for one another in a way other than Sex? Again, I know this sounds harsh, and for that harshness, I apologize.” - Scott
Sean also quotes the line of Joseph, “IMO, what we need is to stop mystifying sex and confusing it with love.”
Sean then quotes Scott again, “How do you mean mystifying?”
Sean then replies with words of wisdom for ALL of us;

“All people are different in their sexual orientations, propensities, and energies. Some people have a very low libido or a libido that requires a rather complex set of determinants for the libido to come alive. For these people, celibacy is not a great concern given most conditions. Others have a very strong libido, and if they do not receive release, their consciousness and physiology crave release. For these people, celibacy is not a wise choice ... if it should even be presented as a choice at all. Also, everyone’s libido and sexual thoughts change over their lifetime, waxing and waning in a sinusoidal pattern, and being partly determined by conditions in their lives.Why take up a cross? Why not take up happiness and Mystery? Mortification of the flesh was advocated in the middle ages, I believe, but we should be developed beyond that perverse way of thinking centuries ago. Also, it is not wise to select or be dictated to what type of cross to take up. Believe me, life will hand you several unexpected crosses, and they shall be sufficient to crush you. So, cross taking up should not be an issue. Additionally, self-torture is, pathology, not a virtue.” - Sean
Sean then asks Scott, “Also, why do you think Joseph and Clemeth did not express their love for one another outside of sex?”
Sean defines sex for men and women as, “Sex and love are two separate things, particularly for a lot of males. For a lot of women, an exclusive intimate relationship with love is ideal, but for a lot of men, just a good relationship and physical attraction is ideal or just physical attraction at times, and men struggle a great portion of their lives with always being sexually attracted to more than one woman … until they realize the unnecessary suffering they cause women in their shenanigans. Thus, for a lot of women, sex is deeply personal but for a lot of men, the impersonal can fully enter in until they start seeing things as they Is.”

Sean further adds, “Sex is so mystified in our culture that a lot of young men (can’t speak for women) think they are in love when they have the hots for someone else, but this attraction is often purely sexual, purely biochemical, and it leads to problems if you are dealing with two radically different people. More is needed for a lifelong relationship or even a harmonious short-term relationship.”

Sean then quotes Charlene, “I love them for caring and I know their hearts want the best for me.”
Sean then said, “This is only one possibility among many, and in most instances, it is off the mark. LolCharlene, you take positive thinking to an entirely new level … “


Dee aka runningbrook

I’m quoting Dee as supportive to this conversation and the important wisdom that she brings.

Dee wrote, “Scott, in your two post, #8 and #9. I found out more about what your beliefs are. Just like we are all finding out about each other. It is amazing that we are such a diverse group, and we are in this together!!I get such intense and deep feeling from you Scott. You have standards, expectations, and feel that you are expressing what is best for humanity. What comes to me is just this: Learning how to have healthy relationships with ourselves and others seems to be the most difficult circumstance for most of us.A Catholic Nun I adore, Sister Maurice said this at a retreat recently,"Do you think the suicide bomber feels that he or she is a marvelous and wonderful creation of God"You can replace 'suicide bomber' with any other individual who does harm to another or themselves. Her point was that, we are all marvelous and wonderful creations of God, and if we 'knew' that, we would not knowingly violate or harm another human being.The standards we individually live by, can only come from within our own hearts and souls, I believe. Now, I'm rambling, but this is a marvelous and wonderful discussion, Dee


Tulachard approves with a smiley;
:O)



The next section of text is taken directly from the conversation unchanged, because of the changing tone of the participants leading to my getting banned eventually from the group; it is a way to understand the dynamic of making a victim out of the innocent. This is how Jesus ended upon a cross to be crucified and it was a sin by all involved. The same thing happens even today two thousand years later as though we never learned a thing.




Darkmoonman

"I know that it sounds harsh. And were you Catholic I would talk about how being celibate would be your great Sacrifice, your great Cross to bear. I will spend my life celibate. To me this is a fact of life, and it does not bother me."Which, as you are Catholic would be a burden in which you find meaning. It is, as you say, a fact of life for you, and I fully believe in your right to that election for yourself. For me, celibacy has meaning only when it is chosen freely, not when someone (a priest, minister, etc.) demands it of me in order to get their approval for my life which, in truth, is not theirs to live, judge, or approve.As for my cross, my real one is the desire (yes, yes, I know) to help everyone see that it is the responsibility of each of us to reduce the physical & mental suffering of all persons whenever possible - that only by doing that do we increase the value of life; but, I settle for the volunteer work I can do, which even if no one else learns from it, I will have reducede some suffering by my own hands."I wonder though, could you and Clemeth, whom you obviously Love, have expressed your Love for one another in a way other than Sex? Again, I know this sounds harsh, and for that harshness, I apologize."What makes you believe that my love for Clemeth was only sexual?* Sex was an additional component to a love that I've come to realise very few people, of any sexuality, actually find in this life. The pleasure of our long deep discussions was part of our love. Sharing experiences - books, paintings, cinemas, languages, films, landscapes, forests, hills, grand cuisine, cultures - was part of our love. Being there for each other in good times & bad times in such a way that the good times outshone everything and the bad times paled & became insignificant. We had no sex at all the last year of his life, and I lived the life of a celibate, tending him. "'IMO, what we need is to stop mystifying sex and confusing it with love.'How do you mean mystifiying?"Making it into something it isn't. Emparting into it a nebulous reason to judge people when it isn't. Wrapping it in guilt by labelling it one of the nastiest and most sacred sacrements that only two opposite-sex persons can share, and only then restricted within the bounds of a religious ritual**. Pretending that people do not begin having sexual feelings at puberty but only when they are "of age", and restricting all information about to it until they are "of age". Were I studying another culture, these would all fall under cultural mystical aspects of that culture. < you upon inflicted have I pain any for apologies deepest>S'okay. Really. It's not my goal to pai or insult you or anyone. You're just speaking your mind. I'm maybe a bit disappointed that it doesn't tell me anything new about Catholics, but that's okay, too. *- I believe that I mentioned in a prior BGBW my experience with a female co-worker who one day went on & on about how Gay love couldn't be real love - not like what a man & a woman have. Then, an hour after ranting, said that she had never feel that real deep down love for her husband that other women seemed to have with, totally oblivious to the irony. This is the same woman who asked if I was afraid to visting San Francisco on an upcoming planned holiday as there were a lot of "those people" there. I told her I had no fear of Asians.**- This is why my cousin, being a good Baptist, was married & divorced 5 times in 7 years. By luck, none of the marriages produced children.

"I know the church and many who follow the church teachings will say that I have sinned. Cool. I love them for caring and I know their hearts want the best for me."Unfortunately, I'm not convinced of that this last sentence.For example:I might mention to someone that being a smoker will probably shorten his life. I'd not continue to tell him that every time I saw him. I'd not claim that he either hasn't read or hasn't understood the published materials on the harmful effects of shamanism. I'd not try to get him expulsed from his church, his social circles, his job, or his housing. I'd not try to pass laws that make him a 2nd class citizen in his own nation. I'd not gather together 3 or 4 friends to jump him and beat him up when he's alone somewhere. Were he to fall ill from smoking, I'd not proclaim it God's judgment, nor treat him nor wish him treated in any way other than with compassion.


{(Editors note #1: Watch what happens as this dialogue moves along, remember how this conversation got started and follow the flow or trail of the conversation and see what happens next…)}


CatholicGuy777

My Friends,Why take up a cross? Why not take up happiness and Mystery? Mortification of the flesh was advocated in the middle ages, I believe, but we should be developed beyond that perverse way of thinking centuries ago. To me taking up one's cross is not mortification of the flesh, but rather Sacrifice. I believe that ultimately, taking up this cross, this sacrifice-no matter what it is-ultimately leads to Happiness.Also, why do you think Joseph and Clemeth did not express their love for one another outside of sex?What makes you believe that my love for Clemeth was only sexual?My apologies to all of you for implying that Joseph and Clemeth only expressed their Love through Sex. And Joseph, I am very much different than that woman you mentioned. I do not believe as she did that Love is restricted for men and women. Apage is avaliable to everyone IMO.


Quiplet

DMM:This is the same woman who asked if I was afraid to visting San Francisco on an upcoming planned holiday as there were a lot of "those people" there. I told her I had no fear of Asians.I seldom see your humor side - thanks for this- it made me LOL.From my own perspective, I have never once thought that your relationship with Clemeth was just sexual. That is quite clear from your posts - that your love was genuine and you are still grieving.

Tulachard
“Over the last 10 years I have learned much about Gay men and women- and I'm better for the understanding. I think you add a lot to this group and I'm glad your opinions are being voiced.”In reality, gay relationships are predominantly identical to heterosexual relationships in their dynamics. It really isn’t a question of having a “gay” relationship outside of societal prejudices.If you want to learn about gay relationships, heterosexual relationships will do for the most part. Just study them objectively, and be one of the few. According to most studies, gay relationships are just like heterosexual ones, but they do tend to comprise more men and women who are highly education, cultured, and world-centric in their world views. But this is just on the average.


Runningbrook

I'm thinking that the bottom line here is people judging other people. It is too simple for complicated people like us.Does anyone of us have a right to judge another? When you get deep down in your gut, and you look another person in the eyes..what place does judgement have there? dee
To clarify, I don't mean that we are judging one another, on this board...I am talking about the human tendency..overall


TheGreatWhiteBuffalo

Sean you cracked me up with your last post...Not that the subject is funny but looking at things objectively and the thoughts you put together made me smile...I'm going to have to read this thread again and sort out the apples from the oranges...One thing of note is when talking about marriages and divorce there are relationships built on the foundation of Love and their are other relationships in both camps where Hate and Physical or Emotional Abuse is the norm...To All posting Thank you, you're bringing much wisdom to this issue...ALL relationships suffer into divorce, not every relationship enters into this realm, why?Does a lack of practicing sex lead to physical ailments? If you are not using something that the body is designed to use for a particular function, are we allowing that portion of the body to deteriorate and become a cancer our end to our existence?What are the statistics of prostate cancer among Priests? There are many things that we need to look into when it comes to the health of the human body...Does sex with multiple partners lead to health risks, I think we all agree the answer to that question is yes, please type up (Speak Up) if you feel this is not true, I don't mean to speak out of line or out of turn putting words in other peoples mouths... I know I don't like being accused of saying something that I never said...Think about it, I'm really tired tonight...As I said I want to read all of this again.Thank You, Good night,Sincerely,Gary


RunningBroook

Have a good night's sleep, Gary, and thanks for all of your thoughtful and kind words that you share, dee


Tulachard

“To me taking up one's cross is not mortification of the flesh, but rather Sacrifice. I believe that ultimately, taking up this cross, this sacrifice-no matter what it is-ultimately leads to Happiness.”Not honoring the body’s needs is mortification in a passive sense. Such a thought as taking up “this” cross is usually the heroic mind trying to capture some type of mythological presence as hero. It is ego-bound. Believe me, someone who chooses to have sex and children oftentimes pales the theological ego that parades as celibate virtue.Fundamentalism with its sexual taboos and Catholicism with its stance regarding sex being a sacrament of marriage alone and priests being celibate - what have they really produced and exemplified? Pedophilia? Pastors screwing their parishioners? Pastors having mistresses while they are married or under a vow of celebacy? A large body of Catholic priest that is for the most part gay while pretending to be straight, non-sexual, or celibate? Hello? The essential problem has more to do with denial than anything else. Celibacy has nothing at all to do with virtue or taking up a cross but it has much to do with rules instituted by the Catholic Church hundreds of years ago for reasons having to do with anything other than the Sacred Heart.When we look at the life of Christ contextually, we see a man who did not follow the status quo. The interpretation that Christ fulfilled the Jewish law is true only in the sense that he tried to liberate people from those laws and expectations that violated their true spiritual beings. Also, the evidence points to Jesus as being a highly sensual and passionate being with great freedom of thought and awareness. He was not a follower, and he advocated individual being but came down on those who follow and judge according to teachings, according to the dictates of the authoritative heads of his time.

“I'm thinking that the bottom line here is people judging other people. It is too simple for complicated people like us.Does anyone of us have a right to judge another? When you get deep down in your gut, and you look another person in the eyes..what place does judgement have there? Dee”Perhaps the acid test is just that! When we look deeply, are we judging or not! Very good, Dee!

Gary,You are tired a lot. You are tired a lot because you work hard for those you love! As far a my being funny – thank God! And I am most appreciative that I connect with you in that way and that you have the sophistication to pick it up! Celibate Catholic priests have higher incidents of prostate cancer than sexually active men whether they be priests or non priests.


{(Editors Note #2: Here comes a very interesting dialogue, who has created an air of confrontation? And how?)}


CatholicGuy777
Sean,Fundamentalism with its sexual taboos and Catholicism with its stance regarding sex being a sacrament of marriage alone and priests being celibate - what have they really produced and exemplified? Pedophilia? Pastors screwing their parishioners? Pastors having mistresses while they are married or under a vow of celebacy? A large body of Catholic priest that is for the most part gay while pretending to be straight, non-sexual, or celibate? Hello? You have said this. Mayhap you are tired and have suffered like many have from the scandal. However to suggest....you know what, never mind. Go to Hell.I've suffered long enough on this issue. I should delete this post, I don't know why I'm going to hit submit.Should johndavid23 post here, you're a few weeks late to the party, and if you suggest again that my brother is going to Hell, I will leave and not look back.


Tulachard

What?!

LoL


CatholicGuy777

MAY I INQUIRE WHAT IT IS YOU LAUGH AT?ME?MY RELIGION?MY PRIESTS?THE PROFESSION I HOPE TO JOIN?TELL ME, DO YOU HONESTLY THINK THAT ALL PRIESTS ARE HOMOSEXUAL, HAVE MISTRISESS, ETC. ETC.?DO YOU HONESTLY FEEL THAT WAY? AND DO YOU THEN FEEL THAT I TOO MUST BE THAT WAY?!


{(Editors Note #3: Here comes the cheering squad.)}


Fayrespirit
BRAVO SCOTT<>



End of Unedited Text that was requested to be edited by Beliefnet. 7-03-06



Tulachard

Sean explains, “I never said all priest are gay!” Sean then tells Scott, “I was laughing at your statement to me to "Go to Hell." Is this not what you said?”
Sean writes, “Did I ever say that to you? You said it to me. So ... lol”

“I am actually trying to protect you, Scott. The Church within the USA has devolved. It has become a business. And this is trivially apparent for those you talk to people who have been mistreated by the church. For example, a teacher was dumped by the Church today after 30 years of service, and there was no explanation. Her contract was simply not renewed, and she called today weeping. Is that Christ, and do you think treatment of her was an anomaly? Not so! Wake up!” - Sean


Quiplet

I'm just a woman who was raised spiritually in the RC by Jesuits - so what do I know about it? Actually, when I was 12, I wanted to become a Nun. Then, as I grew, I changed my mind. My change did not have to do with RC, it had to do with my own thoughts that changed as my body changed.That's not to say that every one changes their mind when they first become engaged to the RC celibate way. To some there is a longing deep within that must be fulfilled by following through with their religious beliefs and trusting that a glorious reward awaits them in another form greater than any earthly pleasures. (You can see I weighed my choices as a very young woman and decided on earthly pleasures and having children) LOL!

When I was a teenager, my Mother tried to prevent me from associating with a girl who’s Mother never married. As wise as I knew my Mother to be, I could not understand this demand of hers.As I was growing and becoming a woman I knew, even with my lame brain, that animals were animals and people were mammals too - and wondering about cycles and urges -Shoot! I was quite the dorky kid wasn't I?I could never belittle some one for having children out of wedlock for this reasoning of mine knew better.What I do criticize and have a difficult time understanding are people (men and women) who bring about unwanted pregnancies and are not a man or woman enough to take the responsibility of raising and loving the child, or (depending on the circumstances) allowing adoption into a loving home.Indiscriminate sex (especially on a regular basis) cannot be healthy, but I have to also agree with Sean that denying of sexual urges doesn't seem to be the answer either.It's all the (j)genes, Baby!


{(Editor’s note #4 referring back to #1: more catholic support for Scott coming and as this thread was cut short it is well to note that I will comment about this poster and a later post that she makes in an e-mail that I will also produce for the staff of the community. The community staff that would be brought into the discussion to act against me, by Darkmoonman remember Editor’s note #1 and now we get to see how to project and plant a lie in order for an offensive abusive homo to attack the innocent. This is how they work together with the church and others as they cry they have been fouled. )}


Mari aka Magalinacat

She gives her highest Respect for Scott. She writes, “There are no nice people here, just opinionated perfect assholes who have convinced themselves they got it figured out. We should just leave and let them play.”


{(Editor’s note #5 in this post note the excluding of people from the conversation, calling for the thread to die or the people involved in the conversation to be removed and excluded. In the next post we get to see another expletive thrown at Tulachard aka Sean by a wanna be catholic priest.)}


CatholicGuy777 writes;

Fayre & Mari,Thank you both for your support. Mari, I must contend though that there are plenty of nice and kind people here. Look, for examples, at Charlene, Joseph, and Scottie. Sean,"I am actually trying to protect you" Bullshit.I sympathize for the woman who was fired. However, I think that a point has been reached in our relationship in which I feel compelled to ask you not to call me by my name again.


Editor’s note, I asked you to remember Scott’s post about actions and reactions.


Darkmoonman

Joseph again quotes,"Fundamentalism with its sexual taboos and Catholicism with its stance regarding sex being a sacrament of marriage alone and priests being celibate - what have they really produced and exemplified? Pedophilia? Pastors screwing their parishioners? Pastors having mistresses while they are married or under a vow of celebacy? A large body of Catholic priest that is for the most part gay while pretending to be straight, non-sexual, or celibate?"It is seldom accurate to assume that all members of some group share a trait, or that all those who share a trait share all traits. I know that I am drawn to the exceptional rather than the average/mean/norm, and I try to remind myself of this as a way to keep myself from simplifying my view of any group. Interest in the exceptional is something that helps news media thrive. I believe that the majority of priests of any religion believe in & accept their vows. Some believed they'll be able to do greater good by becoming priests. Some believe that they'll escape their "demons" by becoming priests. Some find they struggle with some of their vows. Some fail in their struggles. "Hello?""Go to Hell"Being honest, the use of "Hello?", when addressing any but oneself, usually implies he/she/they are ignorant of or are ignoring what has been stated. Likewise with "Duh!"Likewise, "Go to Hell" is the same as saying "Shut up" - usually as a way of devaluing/dismissing what someone is saying. I'm trying to locate the URL for the Conflict Resolution Board, but as usual with anything on B'Net, it is eluding me. Admittedly, I don't believe I can resolve the issues between Sean & Scott.


Editor’s note: indeed the issue is between Sean and Scott, how do I get banned? Read on and follow the switch and attack.


CatholicGuy777 writes,

“Joseph,Thank you for trying to help us resolve our issues, however, right now, I'm to angry to even want to resolve them. Perhaps in the future I will be able to.I know that this is poor example of how a Catholic Christian is to act, and for that, and that only, I apologize.

For future reference the Conflict Resolution Board is here. “


Darkmoonman replies;

“ScottAs you have no private e-addr showing on, I have no way to send you private email. Mine is darkmoonman@gamil.com.”


{(Editor’s note #6: this is not a valid e-mail address the letters directing the e-mails to the ISP client are reversed, the mistake is caught later.)


CatholicGuy777 responds,
“Joseph,I was unable to send an e-mail to the address given, I will reinstate the link in my profile for a short time.”


Darkmoonman quotes,“Scott
"I know that this is poor example of how a Catholic Christian is to act, and for that, and that only, I apologize."”Joseph writes, “Anger is a normal human emotion. Jesus, Buddha, Mother Teresa, Thich Nhat Hanh have all gotten angry at times. I'm pulling rank and closing this thread until the staff at B'Net wakes up to assist me.”


CatholicGuy777 protecting the freedom of speech,

“With all due respect, when we had personnel problems in the past, threads weren't shut down. Sure, sometimes they were erased, but we weren't shut down. Why then should we now? Should I deny my feelings toward tulachard? Ground is being broken, but I'm not so sure that wisdom is being built. “
Scott,


Darkmoonman explains,“I can't erase anything until the B'Net staff wakes up to assist.
Arrrgh. I cannot type.darkmoonman@gmail.com”


Mari aka Magalinacat

Scott,You're right, there are a lot of nice people here and I should have not said that as an "everyone" statement. I think Willi is the Bomb. I do apologize.


Editor’s note, this is an insincere apology and will be evidenced later that she has no intention of treating people with compassion or respect, she becomes nice and then eggs on and attacks with vengeance, one of the greatest violators of profanity and pictures drawn with words that are so degrading while acting like she didn’t do anything wrong. I become the target of her attack and that is when I get banned for what she say’s.
Mari writes, “IMHO---I don't believe Christ had anything to do with the lady getting fired. I believe that was the Free Will of Man. I believe that Christ will help her through her hard time. I truly must apologize for my attitude not only on this thread, but a few others. I temper got the best of me is my only excuse, I should practice self control.I get tired of tip toeing around others beliefs, trying hard not to offend, only to finding myself basically called names when others are referring to my beliefs, morals and values. Do they know they are offending me? Usually not. Do they care? I would hope so. Live and let live. We cannot control the free will of man.What truly saddens me is that the ones I called assholes, are people I like and have respect for. Sean, I don't share your faith, but if it works for you, then that's great, it just doesn't work for me. And that should be ok. They way the world is today, I want everyone to have faith in something.... anything, as long as you have faith. From one of my favorite songs:When we're free to love, anyone we chooseWhen this worlds big enough for all different viewsWhen we're all free to worship, from our own kind of pew.Then we shall be freeAnd when money talks for the very last timeAnd nobody walks a step behindWhen there is only one race, and thats MANKINDThen we shall be free.My love to all,”Mari

Pheebie enters the conversation.

She writes, “My Dear DMM---It seems to me that you are trying, as best you can, to keep everyone here happy. You, after all are in charge. And that is kind of scary--to me, anyway. My opinion is that the people in this group are very open-minded, understanding, compassionate, and LOVING. No matter what the belief-system we may adhere to, we are willing to listen, and are willing to give our input. (Boy, are we :) After-all, we want to help our fellow beings. I think, most of all, we are here to LOVE---and we are human beings with Spirit flowing through us into this physical realm. So, HERE we ARE in the NOW. How exciting!!!”


CatholicGuy777

This past evening has made me wonder if we are staying true to the original spirit of BGBW. Tulachard, do you not realize that everything you have said about priests is everything that's been thrown at me? Do you realize how hurt I am by all of your comments? Do you realize how much Roman Catholics Love our priests and nuns? Do you?


Scottie aka Anima rising (a co-host with Darkmoonman)

Scottie writes, “Pheebie, I really appreciate the way you put that. Thanks so much!”


Then I say as TheGreatWhiteBuffalo’

Scott,Post #48 take another look at what you wrote, and consider that there are many that have died for their religious beliefs in uncontrolled anger. You have reached a point of uncontrolled anger and that is why I write or try to write so delicately, and sometimes fail.I start slowly and creep along to keep the flow so that you can become enlightened.One of the most important things is to remain open minded and not to get upset at the thoughts that you see offered until all of the thoughts are put on the table.If you walk away and discount everything because you start to get offended, then there is no room for growth.This issue of marriage and Gay rights doesn't end with the passage of laws protecting the definition of a word. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT!!! Joseph, you know I told you that I have always been in your corner, and here I remain. The context of the article is about the homosexual agenda, the movement forward is through their own Civil Unions... That would allow for obscure relationships to be recognized and that would fix the problem.We haven't addressed the fix and we have caused hurt feelings because we are so thin-skinned and this distracts us from growing and building wisdom by finding the way to fix the problem.Scott it takes much wisdom to know where your dog is fighting when you get into a fight, as a spectator you might want to check which ring your dog is being put into. Check your emotions and if you would like to see just how prevelant this problem of emotions is I suggest you check out this link...http://yourturn.npr.org/cgi-bin/WebX?14@160.kSVhabH6k1P.8@.1dd06ce4/1030Short Cut to another message board (NPR) about Gay Marriage Now if you get there and you study the posts that Gale makes you will also find her anger in her posts, like Scott she is offended and blaming me or others for her inciting her own anger.

Like Sean, I'm trying to show you the path of enlightenment and we (Sean and I) have no malice in this conversation and wish everyone to be at peace.What I am trying to do if you read and listen to the words that I write is I'm trying to show you the fix to the problem, it is a simple fix if you allow yourself to understand.Peace and Blessings,Sincerely,Gary
I also add;
Let's stop fighting here and start talking contract law, the resolve to the issues that so many of a majority of people consider their way of life.Is beliefnet owned by the Catholic Church? In a diverse group of beliefs there must be room for all beliefs to come together as one unified group that live on a very small planet, we should all learn to share and care for each other.Now to read through all that you wrote Scott, I'm finally awake enough to do your writing justice...I do believe however I just covered all that needed to be considered, for everyone. If I find more to add I will, I hope the thread doesn't get pulled or deleted because of the obvious conundrum that exists... Shall it be that another person lay's down his life for the protection of ALL? I think not, it isn't necessary. We have minds that can think through our differences once we allow other people to help us.Sean is a helper just as is Char, Scottie and Joseph... We can all work this out together...Peace and Blessings,Sincerely,Gary

I reply again;

I just re-read the whole thread...I stand by what I write, Scott, and others that wish to worship will have a hard time doing so in a building that is absent GOD.It is my belief that so much harm has come to our world by these buildings and false teachings. The mill stone is hung around the steeple of the Church for the leaders that have guided religion down the wrong path and promoted death over life and the teachings of Jesus the Christ.To follow the path of a living Jesus one that is not hanging on the cross or a sacrafice but a living example of GOD.The Church sometimes teaches that and sometimes the Church twists that teaching into a doctrine of death and ultimate sacrifice. The major; of the false teachings.Our beliefs can be different HOW?My world is my seat in my daily walk with GOD all through my life. No building holds the key to my love for GOD.


ClovesG

Charlene writes, “Hi Guys~Well, I have not been on here the past 2 days since I have been at my friend's house helping her through the grief of losing her brother and cleaning her home so that her family can go there after the wake and funeral.I haven't read any of the many other threads, but I did just get through all the posts on this one.I know Joseph has asked to shut down this thread, but I beg that he doesn't. Why? Because then there is no opportunity for the people here to move past the wall that is temporarily building around their hearts and see that maybe they are tired of have stuff on their minds that makes them feel like swearing at one another is the only way to handle thier frustration at not being understood. Please know that we don't always get each other, we don't always agree with each other and we don't have to love each other, but when we choose to try to bridge the gap and reach out our hand to one another.......it is amazing how lighter our hearts feel and before long we are smiling.I ask that you not look at what others have said, but check your own voice and make sure the message you have delivered here is one that speaks for the person you wish to be. I get that we often want to protect one another from what we think will be painful or a waste of time and we talk from experience and sometimes speak in passionate voices about what we believe we know. :) But I believe each person's experience is theirs and theirs alone and only they will know what is best for them. I think this group is amazing. The people here are so worth listening to and when you see one person who looks unworthy of your time.......I challenge you to look again and see what exactly it is that bugs you because this person is the one that most likely will help you to grow the most in this group. You have the choice to leave, but I do so think we are all great people and deserving of a great experience in which we break ground and build wisdom and that sometimes requires us to step outside our comfort zone.”Love you all, Char :)


Mari aka Magalinacat

Mari responds, “Gary, I understand what you are saying. I had to get my husband to explain it to me, but I understand.I am very thankful for the church that I attend. I have been Catholic and Baptist, and now I choose a non-denomination. church. My church focuses on People relationships and General Everyday Life. I like that. I always feel welcome. My pastor talks to us like we were a small group of people sitting around shooting the bull. He doesn't act like he knows it all; he acknowledges he is a student with us. My church puts importance of the Unity of People. Thank you for your postHappy thoughts”Mari

{(Editor’s note #7 in this post above I’m highly accepted for my thoughts but momentarily the thread turns and the attack is on me and not Sean or Scott.)}


TheGreatWhiteBuffalo

Thank You Mari...Imagine now from my perspective, where you go to be with people non-denominational. I live, each and everyday I am there, in my daily walk living and participating in the great gift of life on Earth.The difference is you go to a building, I am the building.That might sound very weird but if you search your texts, that is where we all should be each and every day, our hearts need to be in that place with the source of life for ALL.Peace and Blessings,Sincerely,


MagalinacatMari writes, “Gary
Oh no, I agree. I just recently started back to church after a long hiatus. I stood firm on the belief that I did not have to enter a building to serve my God or to call myself Christian. Traditional Church was my up bringing as well as my husbands, so we have had to argue this battle with lots of family members. I go to "the building" for the people in it and we choose to worship while we are there. (Right after the Jam session)With love,”Mari


Quiplet

That's neat - and I love your little Bear jammin'


CatholicGuy777

Scott writes, “there are many that have died for their religious beliefs in uncontrolled anger.For example, St. Thomas More, who was slain because he refused to give the English King the power and authority of Bishop.If you walk away and discount everything because you start to get offended, then there is no room for growth.Start to get offended? Read the thread again Gary, Tulachard has consistently accused a group of people that have helped many throughout the years, and that I Love very much. What the Hell do you expect me to do? Lie down and let him walk all over me and those I Love? Through his derogatory insults of them, and through them, me, I feel perfectly justified with my anger. I am through making apologies and stepping around the polite social boundaries of the Internet forums.thin-skinned? come on now. I've suffered with this issue for a long time, only now am I reacting as I am.Like Sean, I'm trying to show you the path of enlightenment and we (Sean and I) have no malice in this conversation and wish everyone to be at peace.I have NO doubt about your intentions Gary. However Tulachard has gone around this board proclaiming that books, tapes, and other items that help people in their spiritual growth are junk. He has also consistently, metaphorically, slapped me in the face in his horrid remarks about the Priesthood.In a diverse group of beliefs there must be room for all beliefs to come together as one unified group that live on a very small planet, we should all learn to share and care for each other.I used to think so. Now, because of Tulachard, I don't.Sean is a helper just as is Char, Scottie and Joseph... We can all work this out togetherNo he isn't. They give a shit about other people's feelings. These past days I have not seen that from him.So am I to understand that you share the sentiments of Tulachard when it comes to Church? Do you not understand the comforts that merely being on Church property brings me? It is the closest thing I have to a true home on this Earth.Ultimately, in addition to the hurt and anger, I am disappointed that neither of you know me better than you do” - Scott


{(Editor’s note #8: Fundamentalism running rich through Scotts perceptions of where he finds communion with GOD, while attacking others, how far would he take his attack? Would he be willing to fight to the death of a person or poster? Is this person pro-life? Where does religious thinking and teaching go wrong? See the Evolution of Religion http://tgwbevolutionofreligion.blogspot.com/)}


Editor’s note on re-edit; 7-04-06 suddenly after re-reading this text I get the idea that because of the  offense of Scott about Sean and his attitude towards books and the only book Sean asked not to participate was presented by Writingal books written by Wayne Dwyer, hmmm? This has me thinking, let’s look at the writing styles of Writingal, CatholicGuy and Wayne Dwyer.


Writingal

Scott--hi.My post has nothing to do with what anyone else here has said.It's in response only to your posts about sex.You know that my background is very similar to yours--I was raised as a very Traditional Catholic and went to Catholic schools where I was instructed by priests and nuns.When I say that I have been some of the same "places" that you are and have been--believe me that it's true.I just want to say this--sex is an incredibly marvelous gift from God. Until one has partaken of this gift one simply does not know what sexual communion is all about?Believe me when I say that celibate priests do NOT know the gift that sex is.If one decides not to partake of this incredible gift from God--that is your own business. But please--no one who does not know what sexual communion is and can be should tell anyone else they should not experience it ever in their life.I use the word "communion" on purpose because I know that you know what Communion is. My advice for anyone considering a celibate life in which they will find themselves in a position to be counseling people in sexual relationships is to experience sexual communion for them selves first--otherwise it will be just like men talking about childbirth and saying that they "know just how the woman feels."Again--this is not an attack, Scott, I am just stating facts as I have come to learn them in my own life starting with my very Catholic upbringing and on into my life up until now.Sending many good thoughts for you.WGalbtw--read some of the Catholic and other Mystics to find out how sex can be a mystical experience too.


Anima rising

Scottie writes, “Hi Scott,I just want to tell you that I totally understand the feeling of Being in the church and feeling comforted.Even though I no longer am a practicing Catholic, when I do go into a church, I feel a certain sense of wonder.The things about the church that I have always felt attuned to were mainly sensory - the incense, the candles in their little red cups, the stained glass windows and the way the light would shine through them, the sound of Mass said in Latin (way back when I was little), the flowers on the altar, all of the statues...And there was one ceremony, I don't know the name of it or if it is even held these days, but it was for the Blessed Virgin... students would hold these arches, covered in flowers, ferns and vines...there would be several of these. And we would walk in procession into the church singing the Ave Maria. To this day, when I remember that ceremony, I get chills. It was one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen.I hope my sharing brings some comfort to you. I know you are sincere in your faith, and I also know you are hurting right now.My thoughts are with you. Believe in what your heart says and understand that sometimes people speak negatively out of their own pain and sorrow.I hope this helps...Take care,”Scottie


Writingal

Scott--just to be really clear--when I say "sex can be a mystical experience" I mean that sexual communion can create a mystical communion with God.WGal
Wgal advises, “Read St Theresa of Avila's writings on her mystical experiences for some descriptions of this.”

Wgal writes to Scottie, “I like the blue candle holders myself.I think you're thinking of the processions etc for Mary's month of May? I like the music myself--especially in the Gothic Cathedrals in Europe.I recommend--and I mean this quite seriously--that anyone who is losing their Catholic faith or is having issues with the Church--if you can--go to Europe--France in particular--and experience Mass in the thousand year old Gothic Cathedrals--High Mass--full dress with choir and 18th Century pipe organ shaking the very foundations of the church building.Sit and watch the sunlight stream through the stained glass windows.And lie on the floor in the main aisle and let the arches rise over you like the branches of a magnificent eternal tree.It can bring you back to what once was yours and what you have felt before that really counted in your life--which is God and you.Sending many good thoughts for you.”WGal


CatholicGuy777

Scott writes to WGal, “I understand that this is not an attack on me or more importantly, my religion. And I thank you for that. I also thank you for knowing and appreciating Sex for what it is.”Scott writes to Scottie, “Yes, your descriptions of your experiences with the Catholic Church do greatly comfort me, thank you my friend.Scott writes to ALL, just to clarify to any reading:“I know that the Church is not made up of buildings, rather all of us (well all of us Catholics) are the Church. We are not limited by four walls and a roof.”


Anima rising

Scottie writing to WGal, “I think that is the procession I am thinking of...it is still so vivid to me.I would love to experience what you described - to be in an ancient cathedral, feeling the history, knowing all the souls who have been there, like being inside a living piece of art...”


Fayrespirit writes,
“I was raised as a Baptist, as an adult, I became an Episcopalian. As a military wife I have spent 7 yrs. in Europe. Now I attend a UU church for a variety of reasons.I have been in great European Cathedrals and felt that soaring sense of AWE. I have attended wonderful services in large Episcopal churches with the music, and candles, and bells, and have experienced that soaring sense of AWE. I have attended 'Evensong' in a small chapel and felt that soaring sense of AWE. I have walked around a Stupa, fingering prayer beads and saying Navaho prayers and felt that soaring sense of AWE and communion. I have also stood on the edge of a deep huge gorge and felt that soaring sense of AWE. I've stood on mountains tops beneath towering pines, and felt that soaring sense of AWE. I've looked across vast desert vistas to thunder storms in the distance, smelling the scent of rain on the wind and felt that soaring sense of AWE. I cut the cord to separate my new-born baby grand-daughter from her mother, my daughter, and felt that soaring sense of AWE. And I have also experienced that soaring sense of AWE and communion making love. God, Spirit, Power, Source, the Father, the Mother, What ever term we use to name that which each of us experiences, or acknowledges as the Divine...."That that IS" communicates with us WHENEVER we open our hearts, and souls, and spirits, and yes, minds, to the experience of that soaring sense of AWE.”


Pheebie writes,
“That's BEAUTIFUL, Fayre. Thank you. I stand in AWE.”


Writingal adds,

“Fayrespirit--your post 74 is wonderful--I've been fortunate to receive that gift of awe myself.My reason for talking specifically about Gothic Cathedrals was to speak to those who were brought up Catholic but for whom their faith has run into some of the serious problems the Church faces today.I personally see such experiences as you and I have both described as healings from Spirit to us.Sending many good thoughts for you and yours.”
WGal

She also writes, “Scott--thanks for accepting my post in the spirit in which it was offered.Sending ,many good thoughts for you.”
WGal


Runningbrook

Dee writes more words of wisdom, “I really admire a woman named Amma. She lives in India, and has started up several humanitarian projects, and is followed by many.Her words are very powerful to me. One time she said that the western world could focus more on worship. I understood that, and wherever one finds a place within themselves or outside of themselves, to worship, that is a blessing.” Dee


TheGreatWhiteBuffalo

Slave/Master RelationshipsIn days of old whips and chains bound us as property to the cruel task master. Today we have been bound to sinful leaders that would lead us with a bunch of lies. We have authority figures that don’t tell the truth; a text that misrepresents history. Books and buildings where people gather to worship in error inspired by Awe of man’s construction and ability to dazzle and bend the light of the world and the word.When the Church becomes a tool to be complicit in acts of terrorism, where guns are buried deep into the necks of the faithful and life is threatened. When called in for a meeting to question a person’s qualification for membership and the intention is to revoke and embarrass the victim of many lies; when the victim the former member has their property damaged with the twist of a wrist and again their life is threatened. This institution called the Bride of Christ proves to be anything but godly. For how many people have been killed for the sins of the Church and those that claim to worship a holy and pure god? There is no way that the blessing of god can be bestowed upon such an institution that would stoop to such a deplorable low, and claim to be something it is not.Are we slaves to people?Are we slaves to the church?Only a cruel master maims and kills, or attempts to create fear to control.Love conquers all, repentance and reparations make forgiveness possible, a lesson to be learned by humans all.



This thread ended up with Mari aka Magalinacat posting about ripping off heads and defecating down peoples throats.

That would lead me to the correspondences with the staff of the forum about my getting banned from the BGBW #6 & 7 dialogue groups.


Here are e-mails sent to Beliefnet Grace.

Did she understand how they used her in this little foray of thoughts to control my thoughts?

My words were censored and my thread was expunged, how do I know if I even exist?

Who will remember me?

Who will have learned anything about being compassionate, about how to heal our world, about being a blessing to the creation that is created? Who knows GOD?
 
----- Original Message -----
From:
To: 'Beliefnet Staff'
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 11:37 PM
Subject: RE: TheGreatWhiteBuffalo: Your Beliefnet Posts
 
Grace,
 
Hello Grace,
 
How are you?
 
I’m glad to finally get these two e-mails and try to get some understanding and grasp on what had happened.
 
 
Wow, how could all of that happen?
 
I had a discussion going with CatholicGuy777 (Scott) We were in the Writers Den and took the conversation over to the Breaking Ground and Building Wisdom Group, and Sean almost quit the group because Scott jumped all over Sean and told Sean to Go to Hell, and then Scott called out to JohnDavid and complained about JohnDavid wishing Scotts brother to go to hell because his brother is in the military. JohnDavid refuted making any such comment. Scott was mad because Sean advocated that ‘the building the church’ was a great source of evil in this world, Scott wants to be a priest and tried to defend the church offensively. The whole topic revolved around the Same Sex (<s>marriage</s>) Union issue. My being heterosexual offended the new moderator of the group, Darkmoonman who is homosexual. Darkmoonman didn’t have anything nice to say as he tried to insinuate that I was defiling his relationship with the love of his life Clemmeth. Now I never tried to do that, I tried to advocate for Same Sex Unions as Civil Unions.
 
Then Maglicent (Mari) comes along and she starts ripping off heads and defecating down people’s throats… She tried to make it look like I had no worthy thoughts, and advocated that my posts should not be read… So out of all that was written to me by others, I became the bad guy.
 
Scottie (Annima Rising) she is allowed to go to the other board for emotional support. As I get banned or have my posts deleted.
 
I have the start of the problem with Scott saved if you wish to review the whole thing.
 
Sean posted something that rather eloquently speaks to what had just happened.
 
“If someone is in a dangerous situation, it does not mean there is a realistic solution or that they are not together or not well developed spiritually. It simply means they are in a dangerous situation. That was all I was expressing other than my affection for many people here. In the wild when an animal is wounded or sick, the predators attack. It is the same thing with people. I said I was in trouble, I apologized for failing some people here, I also expressed my affection, and then a couple of people demanded detailed apologies for things likely taken completely out of context relative to their ego needs, and moved to say disparaging things about me to form a hunting pack, but I shall not be brought down, nor do I wish to engage in such a negative dynamic.” – Tulchard (Sean)
 
Personally, I know that JoAllison made the complaint about BGBW6 but banning me from 6&7 and not reprimanding the others is not appropriate, I was only trying to explain my beliefs.
 
I wanted to be able to say my peace and get on with the next subject; those that wished to single me out seemed to have done a pretty good job. JoAllison had a problem with me using 911 services in another conversation and just waited for this opportunity to put an end to my public offerings. Refer to Sean’s quote.
 
I’m interested in your thoughts if this is what you saw?
 
Please share more of your thoughts with me on this matter,
 
Thank You,
 
Gary
 

After a reply to this message above I also sent this next message to Beliefnet Grace.

 
----- Original Message -----
From:
To: 'Beliefnet Staff'
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 6:33 PM
Subject: RE: TheGreatWhiteBuffalo: Your Beliefnet Posts

Dear Grace,
 
Thank you for your response to my questions, although you did not address the complaint that I made about the posts of others, and the fact that I see a set up for my view point as a heterosexual to discuss the issue of homosexuality and the issue of same sex couples coming together in a contract of love described as a Civil Union and why. First off in my email sent to you below I described one poster engaging me in this conversation as a stalker and a set up for the upcoming conversation. The fact that I would be removed because of this discussion on of all days Fathers day is real disturbing. Secondly, Scott first attacked my friend Sean, about the ideology and value of the Church and the purpose of the church in society, he then manipulated the emotions of everyone claiming that he would quit the group and was supported to stay. By that time everyone was worried about Sean leaving also, a diversionary attack and reaction that allowed Joseph to attack my views on homosexuality, misrepresenting my words to have said something that I never said.
 
You did not address this issue, Joseph being the moderator and how he used his power to control you - and silence me, because I have an opposite point of view to his sexual behaviors, I don’t agree with people that are causing harm to themselves and society, and I have a right to point out the health risks of these behaviors. Unfortunately, the intervention by the Beliefnet staff has crippled my ability to sound my voice of reason to the issue. I’m saying the act of homosexuality is a sin. And it is… I don’t hate Joseph, and I would love to discuss this issue with him, in a group where we can talk with reasoned voices, remember the conversation was with Scott, and started with Scott. I tried to divert Scott from this conversation as you see in this thread that I saved and I’m placing here for you to consider that I did not want to engage this topic in this discussion forum because of the danger of my getting banned or offending people that I didn’t know all that well in the Writers Den I requested the discussion be moved to a group that was designed to discuss hard to deal with issues, if they say the group was not set up for this topic or they became involved in a topic that they didn’t want to be involved in that is not my fault that I was led into the discussion by Scott (CatholicGuy777) and yet I get banned as an outcome.
 
 CatholicGuy777
Seriously though, there are much more important things your generation can do for mine, and cursing pretty well doesn't matter.But if your generation could treat concepts of Love, Sex, and Marriage with a little more respect, then maybe, my generation wouldn't be as hyped as the Hippies about "free sex"


TheGreatWhiteBuffalo
Laughing at Scott And round and round we go...Let's not talk down, and put our best foot forward, on top of that NPR will promote what ever you wish to be promoted...The question is do they use biased reporting?Scott, I've written a lot about Love and Marriage, would you like me to start a thread on that so we can fix your mind straight?I'd be willing to dance a round with you on those issues if you care...Do you want to start the thread or shall I?


CatholicGuy777
I respect Love and Marriage. I hold no contempt for them, and honor them both highly. I do not need to be "straightened out" about them. But there are ohters in my generation who are used to the concept of "free sex" and if the current adult generation could begin to empathize a more traditional, respectful view of it through your actions, then the wounds placed upon the USA by the Hippies could begin to heal. True they did start with a good message: peace. The divorce rate alone in the USA cheapens the concepts of Love and Marriage to the youth of today. We are scarred by the widespread hurt and fractions in our families....I'm considered "lucky": my parents have stuck together. But I go to school and my friends are arguing over what techinically comprisies step/half siblings. You have no idea how horrible it is.oh and another credit to the decades that saw the Hippies is the music, though some of that works to cheapen too


TheGreatWhiteBuffalo
Hi Scott,Glad to see your postition on this issue, I kind of thought from our other encounters that you would feel that way but he wording of you post had me a little confused.I'm going to ask again to start another thread...I'm tired and I won't be on much longer tonight, I have to get up early tomorrow and tomorrow night we have a concert to attend my daughter is singing in the chorus at school.But I would like to talk more about the values placed on and around marriage and how divorce has compromised all of that and a few other ideas that I would like to pass along regarding abuse in relationships and that stuff...You read my report on the Evolution of Religion did you not? I cover a lot of this in that writing, that is the theme, abuse underscores the majority of the paper and identifies the source, from there we can move forward.So yes, I would like to talk more with you or who ever, and on more than one board, I'm sure it would be a great topic in BGBW6...I'm in are you? All others welcome... Lets talk about the real issue... Love


CatholicGuy777
Mayhap, BGBW6 would be a more appropriate place to put that discussion. Unfortunately, I think I missed the "Evolution of Religion". If you wish to start a thread on the values of Marriage, be my guest. I think that the topic should only be discussed here if the others in the DG permit it, after all, this is a writing DG, not one devoted to discussing things such as Love and Marriage, as BGBW is (BGBW is Breaking Ground Building Wisdom which in 2 weeks is starting in it's seventh time running for those unawares. it is found under the category "other").humbly yoursscott


TheGreatWhiteBuffalo
Certainly that was my concern.Look for the thread in BGBW6..

 
Here you can see where the thread titled… ‘The vote today’… was started.  Again if you look at my posts you will note the level of discussion that I used and the aggressive nature of the posters that are complaining; including the moderator.
 
I would greatly appreciate if you can send me a copy of that thread, in its entirety. Or if you think that I was writing hate speech that you show me the words that I wrote that you consider hate speech so that I don’t do it again. I did not have any malice in my writings, while I understand how my words could have been twisted into a perception of malice, but that is a problem of the person twisting the intended thought, we can’t hold the hands of people that don’t understand or read everything and ask questions about what they are reading. If people just take one frame and jump to conclusions then they are the ones at fault for not taking the time to fully comprehend a situation as Jo Allison has done before. I know that Jo Allison by her words made the initial complaint and also  had conversations with Joseph to encourage him to remove me.
 
Please understand I’m not asking to be allowed back into that group and I don’t want to be in that group again. I’m trying to save my name from an aweful attack that I just received by mob or group mentality, and that violence and abuse can spread like wild fire and does. I hope you are just as concerned with stopping abuse as I am. This is the cultural war that we are fighting all around the world, the war against peace. I want to end the war and I want it ended now.
 
I certainly don’t want to be removed from all my participations on Beliefnet, I see Beliefnet as a tool for the Great Spirit of Jesus to bring to fulfillment the promise of peace.
 
Please Help others to tell the truth.
 
I pray,
 
GOD Bless,
 
Sincerely,
 
Gary
 
 


Here is a reply to the secondary e-mail sent from the Beliefnet staff that removed me from our group.


 
Hello Beliefnet Staff,
 
That’s odd this message wasn’t in my Inbox yesterday? Today I find this and the one from Grace about the NPT#15 posts; this is the E-mail I sent to Grace.
 
 
 
Grace,
 
Hello Grace,
 
How are you?
 
I’m glad to finally get these two e-mails and try to get some understanding and grasp on what had happened.
 
 
Wow, how could all of that happen?
 
I had a discussion going with CatholicGuy777 (Scott) We were in the Writers Den and took the conversation over to the Breaking Ground and Building Wisdom Group, and Sean almost quit the group because Scott jumped all over Sean and told Sean to Go to Hell, and then Scott called out to JohnDavid and complained about JohnDavid wishing Scotts brother to go to hell because his brother is in the military. JohnDavid refuted making any such comment. Scott was mad because Sean advocated that ‘the building the church’ was a great source of evil in this world, Scott wants to be a priest and tried to defend the church offensively. The whole topic revolved around the Same Sex (<s>marriage</s>) Union issue. My being heterosexual offended the new moderator of the group, Darkmoonman who is homosexual. Darkmoonman didn’t have anything nice to say as he tried to insinuate that I was defiling his relationship with the love of his life Clemmeth. Now I never tried to do that, I tried to advocate for Same Sex Unions as Civil Unions.
 
Then Maglicent (Mari) comes along and she starts ripping off heads and defecating down people’s throats… She tried to make it look like I had no worthy thoughts, and advocated that my posts should not be read… So out of all that was written to me by others, I became the bad guy.
 
Scottie (Annima Rising) she is allowed to go to the other board for emotional support. As I get banned or have my posts deleted.
 
I have the start of the problem with Scott saved if you wish to review the whole thing.
 
Sean posted something that rather eloquently speaks to what had just happened.
 
“If someone is in a dangerous situation, it does not mean there is a realistic solution or that they are not together or not well developed spiritually. It simply means they are in a dangerous situation. That was all I was expressing other than my affection for many people here. In the wild when an animal is wounded or sick, the predators attack. It is the same thing with people. I said I was in trouble, I apologized for failing some people here, I also expressed my affection, and then a couple of people demanded detailed apologies for things likely taken completely out of context relative to their ego needs, and moved to say disparaging things about me to form a hunting pack, but I shall not be brought down, nor do I wish to engage in such a negative dynamic.” – Tulchard (Sean)
 
Personally, I know that JoAllison made the complaint about BGBW6 but banning me from 6&7 and not reprimanding the others is not appropriate, I was only trying to explain my beliefs.
 
I wanted to be able to say my peace and get on with the next subject; those that wished to single me out seemed to have done a pretty good job. JoAllison had a problem with me using 911 services in another conversation and just waited for this opportunity to put an end to my public offerings. Refer to Sean’s quote.
 
I’m interested in your thoughts if this is what you saw?
 
Please share more of your thoughts with me on this matter,
 
Thank You,
 
Gary
 
Please Beliefnet Staff the request for thoughts applies to you also.
 
Explain to me how profanities and the language used on Bnet by some, is acceptable, while I do not use profanities and my words somehow come under the heading of hate speech. Just because someone calls words hate filled doesn’t make the statement true; while the use of expletives is clearly speech that should be sanctioned, and reprimanded.
 
Don’t I have a right to my beliefs and my point of view?
 
I told you before that I would prefer to live in a free society where people are included, and not excluded, and yet I constantly find my self misunderstood, or misrepresented and characterized by the fears of others. I’m not the bad guy, this action on your part has made me very sad, and as I think of how it unfolded it does make me sick to my stomach.
 
I put a lot of good thought into the words that I wrote, and I stand behind everything I wrote. Show me what was so offensive, and maybe I can correct the misunderstanding. I’m a hard worker to do what is correct, even in teaching others. How else can we break ground and build wisdom?
 
 

In response to the email and the posts that I saved in this story above there was a post in BGBW #7 where some interesting things were stated and I’ve quoted as follows.

"Moral (if it needs to be stated): We can speak plainly but make a reasonable attempt not to be offensive. I've been as guilty here as the next person, but I am going to do my damnedest (oops!) to reread my posts and consider what I am saying and how it might be read and reacted to before I click on "submit"."- Bob aka Lutherian

Joseph aka Darkmoonman wrote these words,
“I agree with both LaRene & Bob - in fact, I'm pretty sure that most if not all the persons on here do. So that newcomers don't misunderstand the jist of this thread: I & all the prior hosts & members on this list have tended to err on the side of liency with regards to posts that ruffled others' feathers in the belief that, if talked out, some benefit comes with regards to appreciating members' views. I know that I, at request on the members, have allowed to stand posts that broke one or more of B'Net's the Rules Of Conduct. This cannot, and will not, include belitting and/or namecalling another and/or his/her beliefs: yes, this might in some cases be a way of getting to know someone, but more likely it dirupts & destroys groups, silences those who find such exchanges intolerable, and risks having entire threads removed by B'Net.

Just to ensure gaps are filled in rather than left often to speculation & gossip: In removing the, IMO, most offensive posts here, B'Net removed others which blatently transgressed the BNet Rules Of Conduct. Please note that B'Net has the right to review everything posted in a DG, and to remove what it considers offensive, whether or not a member of the group has complained about it/them.No one, myself included, is required to respond to any post, no matter how offensive, no matter which buttons it might push. No one (other than the moderators/hosts) is required to read any specific thread. No one is required to be a member of any specific group. I (a gay non-Jewish non-Christian non-Moslem man), as much as anyone, am aware of the hatefull & prejudicial trash that gets posted daily to B'Net as a whole. While I might not always agree with B'Net's choices, they do generally try to censor what is blatently, intentionally inflamatory & hatefull. I'm also aware that most of those who posted such material as still memebers on B'Net.” - Joseph


What is the difference between hate speech and hurt speech?

So by banning me the Gay Joseph has acted with; intentional, blatant, hateful, way it was done in an inflammatory manner to get rid of one that has an opposing view of his behaviors. And as controller and master of my thoughts and writing, claims that he doesn’t have equal rights…

Do you hear hurt or hate in those words? I know I’m feeling hurt for being banned, and who was responsible for having me banned? Joseph holds the power to evict anyone he wishes to.

He was capable of twisting my words to appear as though I wrote something to disparage his life, while I was speaking of the health issues and concerns that a homosexual lifestyle costs our society. The healthcare costs and risks are enormous and we turn a blind eye to the problem let alone the fighting between people that don’t see the harm caused to entire family units.

Most people choose to be gay because they were abused. Fix the mindset that abuse is ok and then we will have fewer people choosing to become gay. Abuse can be caused by former Lovers or either parent, some people are afraid to commit after a failed relationship and some hate one or both parents for the abuses that the individual received while growing up. Add to the abuse the misuse of authority and government servants that lie and you have a whole recipe for making a terrorist, or finding a really good person that could be the next great civil rights leader.

How did the majority become the minority voice?

I think people are creating special privileges for themselves and trying to protect their own agenda’s to spread and proselytize their beliefs for the rest of the world to follow into their Death in absence of knowing eternal peace and GOD’s will for our lives.

Our freedoms have been attacked and continue to be attacked by the Homo supporting church of the GOP an elitist group that controls our world at our expense. This is my observation of how our leaders in the government and community can control or legislate morality. The problem is that with each injustice they are adding more fuel to the fire of terrorism in our world.

So to silence my voice or censor my writing would put my life in great danger, because not many people know or care if I live or die, and the few that do, could become the mentors for tomorrow and bring about the true peace we have all been looking for.

The few that care are the ones that have the Spirit of Jesus and Truth at their inner core and shine the light of love and the cleansing power of protection through exposing the truth in every day life.

Peace through Accountability and the use of the internet.

Sincerely,

Gary